Back2DaFuture

This week the IATSE started a blog:

http://ia4thefuture.blogspot.com/

Look, I applaud the IATSE for finally getting involved on a digital front but this is just plain silly.

Seriously, IA4TheFuture? Did they consult any pro-union VFX workers about this?

You see, that’s been the problem with the IATSE leadership. Some of us who have been incredibly pro-union have extended our hand to help and we’ve been given the back hand.

Past, Present, Future?

Artists will probably wonder if the IATSE is really for the future given their reluctance to even talk about the past or present.

I’ve seen no effort to propose an outline of the benefits they’ve afforded workers in the past. I’ve also seen no effort to give even a reaction to some of the biggest news of the present: Hello Pixar ILM collusion case? That was a gift and it was squandered.

Other Organizing Efforts

Contrast that to the effort by The Animation Guild, an IATSE local that already represents many VFX artists. They have a website that presents what they offer clearly and concisely. They have a presence on twitter and a blog to help get the facts out. When the Pixar/ILM collusion case was going down, TAG offered access to one of the top anti-trust lawyers in the state.

Furthermore, compare if you will, the United Food and Commercial Workers‘ effort to organize the employees of Fresh and Easy groceries. You can see billboards around town encouraging people to read about their organizing drive. They have a website that outlines what they intend to offer to interested workers.

The Wrong Way

But the IATSE wants to go about it a different way and so they ponder:

For the life of me, I cannot understand why we haven’t been deluged with inquiries and authorization cards from people working at the companies specializing in subcontracts from the Major Motion Picture Studios who are producing Series for the big broadcast networks!!

I’ll tell you why, because artists are misinformed with what you have to offer. Then we get this:

Recently, we’ve been deluged with correspondence reiterating the “last nail in the coffin” argument. Employers have been successful in planting the seeds of doubt about the long-term economic effects if this industry were to be subject to a collective bargaining agreement.

The employers haven’t done anything to stop the unionization effort. In fact, if they wanted to crush any unionization effort by vfx artists they can just invite the IATSE leadership to organize it!

As soon as we have the necessary information, like; how much is the prevailing wage rate at these companies? do they pay overtime? do they provide any benefits? and how much do those benefits cost, we’ll sit down with them and work out the details of a fair contract.

I have to agree with Eric Alba’s response to this. They’ve had over a year to figure this out. They’ve had a labor organizer dedicated full time to this and some of the most basic questions are still unanswered?

It’s pretty easy to get that info. Check my MVPs section, I gathered a ton of wage information for everyone to see. Go to vfxwages.com. Hell, why not call The Animation Guild!? Your own local is already representing a huge amount of vfx artists in the industry.

History Repeating Itself

Back in 2003 Imageworks had a chance to sign a collective bargaining agreement with The Animation Guild. If you talked to the artists there at the time they will all tell you the IATSE leaders totally squandered the effort. How? According to various artists, there was no information presented at all. It’s the exact same mistake they are making now. Even former TAG members voted against unionization simply because of the back-handed effort by IATSE leadership.

Look if they aren’t going to bother to listen to the very people they want to represent then please give us the rep cards back that we signed. For the artists without portable benefits or the enforcement of basic labor laws, I’m sorry. This has been a squandered opportunity and we are just going to have to accept it and soldier on.

21 Responses to Back2DaFuture

  1. Dave S says:

    one of my issues with IATSE is/has been, I felt they are out of touch with the “younger” artists (<35). At DreamWorks the biggest benefits were to those with who've been in the union long(+15 years) time. That ok, but it felt like everything they were doing didn't benefit or relate to me, only to their idea of a union man.
    My friend at Sony (at the time of the collective bargaining agreement) felt like it was a pyramid scheme like they needed new blood to keep the older guys benefits going. So again it was either not presented well or it was in fact not looking out for their best interests.
    It's disheartening at times. I'm glad you(vfxSoldier) keep soldiering on. It wears me out trying to push on this, when there isn't a clear feeling of "by us, for us".

    • occlude says:

      I have the exact same fears. I feel like they’re trying to rope us into some kind of ponzi type scheme, so the baby booming retirees can have their pensions while we pay our dues…meanwhile, 30 years from now, where will we be with IATSE? Where will our benefits come from? Trusting that there will always be a future generation to join up and pay for our place in the world is what led to the UAW union problems (among other things).

      • VFX Soldier says:

        Union dues don’t go to fund any of the pension or health benefits.

      • Marcus says:

        To be fair, a certain amount is paid into the Health/Pension plan by the employer for each hour worked. So it indeed becomes a problem of scale to a degree, although unrelated to actual dues, as you said.

        Just like with Social Security (and given current demographics) there’s no guarantee you will get tomorrow what you would expect today. They did just increase the hours to qualify for the MPIPHP in order to keep benefits level, so we all know it is already becoming an issue, especially since the Health and Pension plan seem to draw from the same money source – with healthcare costs in this country going out of control.

        Bright side is, that the risk is spread out over the entire Motion Picture Industry, of which VFX is only a small fraction.

      • skaplan839 says:

        Why don’t you ask an artist whose been working under an IATSE contract for over 30 years, Joe? In his interview with Steve Hulett, he speaks quite freely and unprompted about how his union pension came in handy. MP3 file .. TAG Interview with Cliff Voorhees

        Nice bit of FUD though .. invoking the UAWs trouble with the automobile industry. Why don’t you cite how the workers union brought the fat-cat, didn’t want to innovate, gas-guzzling American Auto Industry to its knees. Seems Ford took the hint. I’m loving those new Mike Rowe commercials on how the improved Fusion is kicking the Camry’s ass.

        Steve Kaplan
        skaplan@animationguild.org

      • Dave Rand says:

        That’s a great idea Steve. Would be great to add some of these types of links to the new IATSE site also. Hopefully I’ll be back at a union shop soon.

  2. vfxPeon says:

    Yeah, this is pretty embarrassing. The IATSE reps in LA promised that they were designing an official website that was going to set everything straight and make everything clear to the vfx community that it is trying to organize. Signing up for a blogger account DOES NOT COUNT!

    Look, blogs are nice. I read them every day, but I do not count on them as my authoritative/official source of information. I read them and then I follow the links to the official sources (you know, the ones that don’t end in blogspot.com.)

    If you want us to commit to you, IATSE, you need to demonstrate that you are committed to us. Hire someone to design a real website and then fill it with all of your information, neatly organized and easily searchable. At the very least spend the 9 DOLLARS it costs to buy a real domain name.

    Every day that goes by without a real website is a missed opportunity and evidence that a vfx union is not likely to get off the ground.

  3. Pragmatik says:

    When the IA wants something, it goes after it. The IA doesn’t want to rep VFX artists, because it is a losing proposition. It would cost the IA a lot of money to try to unionize VFX, and the effort would likely fail. **

    However, IATSE can’t appear to be uninterested. They have to maintain their reputation. So they will continue doing the minimum, to protect themselves from the accusation that they did nothing.

    Don’t waste your time with the IA. It’s not going to get better.

    ** Why unionizing will likely fail:

    • It’s too late to force the Studios to go union. Globalization is here. VFX tools are cheap, VFX education is free, the Studios have numerous alternatives if a shop goes union. There’s no way for a VFX union to hold the Studios over a barrel. They won’t even notice VFX going on strike. Workers might drive a VFX house out of business with a strike, but the Studio won’t care.

    • There is no labor scarcity in VFX; more workers join each year, and many will work for free because they enjoy it. Also, there is a flood of new labor overseas. Emerging nations see VFX as a much better value proposition than manufacturing

    • Every year, software can do more of the work, and workers need to be less skilled. Remember, there used to be skilled workers who set type if you wanted a newsletter to look professional. Now we have iWork. Look at what’s happening with computer-aided roto. Or match-moving. These skills will be obsolete soon. Like knowing how to run an optical printer.

    • VFX houses are prevented by law from getting together and changing the business model, or raising rates. This is collusion, the same offense ILM and Pixar were charged with. Studios have lots and lots of lawyers on the payroll. If VFX houses colluded to change the business, nothing would happen. The Studios would tie them up in court with criminal and civil cases.

    …while outsourcing their VFX to Mumbai.

  4. Pragmatik says:

    Okay, not to be a complete downer…

    …what can VFX workers do to improve their conditions?

    • Ask. Ask your boss for better conditions. You’d be surprised how many companies have their employees bamboozled and underpaid. Often, when confronted, they come up with the goods.

    • If they say no, make a deal. Offer to trade some improvements for better performance. If you can hit a certain milestone, can you go home early, or not work Saturday? Read the 4-hour Work Week by Ferriss.

    • Start your own small VFX house with <7 people, and change the business model. When it's your shop, you can run it any way you want. Small shops are surviving these days because they are agile and keep overhead low.

    • Reduce your standard of living. If you love VFX, accept that conditions will get worse, and adapt. Find other ways to make money. The Fat Days are behind us all. The Lean Times are here, and the buggy whip factories will not reopen.

    • Leverage your skills. Focus on business areas where your skills are a big value-add. Small companies like Sassoon specialized in large-format and stereo early on. In those areas, their VFX skills are a real competitive edge. Rely less on big movies, and more on projects that don't have access to your skills. Innovate.

    • Become the studio. Content is where it's at, baby. Make your own content using your VFX skills, and take a seat at the big table. Make sure the content is good, though…

    • Paul says:

      “• If they say no, make a deal. Offer to trade some improvements for better performance. If you can hit a certain milestone, can you go home early, or not work Saturday? Read the 4-hour Work Week by Ferriss.”

      Living in dreamland much?! It’s the company’s way or the highway for 99.9% of people.

      “• Start your own small VFX house with <7 people, and change the business model. When it's your shop, you can run it any way you want. Small shops are surviving these days because they are agile and keep overhead low."

      They survive by using unlicensed software and paying people like shit. Those who play by the book and pay well close. Asylum/CafeFX ring a bell?

      "• Leverage your skills. Focus on business areas where your skills are a big value-add. Small companies like Sassoon specialized in large-format and stereo early on. In those areas, their VFX skills are a real competitive edge. Rely less on big movies, and more on projects that don't have access to your skills. Innovate."

      Anytime someone told me about Sassoon it was in terrible terms. 3D Stereo will be a thing of the past sooner than you think I wouldn't bet a dime on it.

      "• Reduce your standard of living. If you love VFX, accept that conditions will get worse, and adapt. Find other ways to make money. The Fat Days are behind us all. The Lean Times are here, and the buggy whip factories will not reopen."

      Presposterous, I see $60k to +$120k all around me wherever I go in LA vfx studios, not quite the poverty line.

  5. TS says:

    I was at Sony when they tried to organize. Simply put, there was no clear benefit to the artist, but there was definitely a benefit for the union and getting more members. They also lost some trust because of how they came into Sony. With just a handful of employees at SPA, they were able to get story artists who were wanting to maintain their union benefits to sign the cards. Then with a bridgehead, they could go after the bigger fish. But like I said, there was nothing for the artists to entice them.

    You’d think now with all the ghosting hours, and jobs being sent out of State, the union would be able to get something going.

    • skaplan839 says:

      I’ve heard even further on that TS. The artists in question were more interested in the prized “Staff” position at Imageworks. Back then, staff hires had a match 401(k), comparable if not better health coverage and profit sharing. President Emeritus Koch and Steve Hulett tried to point out that nobody’s tenure at SPI was secured and neither were the benefits they coveted so greatly. Steve Hulett still speaks of meeting artists like yourself who feel they should have voted in favor of union representation.

      So, you’re wrong in saying there was no benefit for the artists at the time. It was just occluded by devious management tactics. Mr. Sarnoff played his position the anti-union management/owner well.

      As for the practice of asking current members to sign representation cards or act as advocates in non-union workplaces, are you really surprised by this?

      Steve Kaplan
      skaplan@animationguild.org

      • TS says:

        Yes, the project hires would have benefited, but not the seniors. Senior staffers stood to lose on going union, so why would they vote for it?

      • VFX Soldier says:

        This is true usually under the idea that you have a long term job which I’m sure most supervisors thought.

        Unfortunately, this was not true and many senior staffers found themselves in project to project situations. In that scenario, you’d be better served by portable benefits.

        I also believe that if presented side-by-side, the benefits offered by the IA are on par if not better than what big facilities offer. Again the key here is portability. I would love to do a comparison. If anyone wants to send me their benefit details I’ll do a post comparison.

      • skaplan839 says:

        That was my point. The “Senior” staff artists were against the appointment of the IATSE as their bargaining agent because they didn’t want to lose the sweet bennies they had in place. The irony .. and lesson, they did anyway.

        Those are the artists that end up finding Steve Hulett these days and telling him of their regret.

        Steve Kaplan
        skaplan@animationguild.org

  6. vfxartist says:

    OK guys, seriously….

    As having been an iatse represented artist of 8 years (which qualified me for 10 years with my banked hours), and the other 12 years having worked as a successful freelancer, staffer, salaried, 1099 as well as working from home, i have to respectfully say you guys have NO idea what you are talking about.

    You can fault iatse, jim goodman, the lack of web presence or whatever you want. In the end, its yourselves that you shortchange.

    Point is iatse is here, they have been doing this (collectively bargaining for entertainment biz) for a LONG time. At the expense of repeating myself, I STRONGLY encourage any and all of you to read Tom Sito’s book on the history of animation and labor.

    http://www.amazon.com/Drawing-Line-Untold-Animation-Simpson/dp/0813124077/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1304660144&sr=8-2

    Unless you understand the history of labor in the entertainment business..unless you understand how its contributed to the high standards of living at places like Dreamworks and Disney, you will never understand what it can bring to vfx. I’d wager that had there been no organizing effort in animation, that industry in the US would be similar to Japan’s: long hours, salaried, not hourly, low wages poor working conditions.. much like the new stereo places that have opened up around LA. Much like some places in London. Prior to organizing the standard week in animation was 6 day weeks, long days. Sound familiar?

    One good example: Pixar!!! For Toy Story 2, they effectively redid the film in the last 6 months. workers worked ridiculous hours, often leading to physical injuries. It got so bad that Pixar had to rethink their work policies after that. I thought those guys were smart; if you work people that long in a seated position, of course they will become injured. Did they really have to find that out the hard way?

    The fact is that organizing is up to the artist. Feel like iatse hasn’t “sold” it to you? Boo Hoo. You are going to have to grow up. Iatse isn’t going to organize you. You have to do that. Remember that to unionize:

    1) YOU have to sign a rep card

    2) YOU have to educate yourself on contract options by researching what iatse offers, what your peers want, as well as studying even TAG’s contract which is almost a proxy for what a vfx guild can be:
    http://animationguild.org/contracts-wages/

    3) YOU have to have meeting with your peers to form a consensus of what people are looking for in a union

    4) YOU will have to elect officers to run the guild

    5) YOU will have to attend meetings

    6) YOU will have to take an active role in deciding the fate of the guild with continued contract negotiations

    ..and plenty more…

    The key is that a vfx guild is run & maintained by the artist…

    case and point: look at The Animation Guild:
    http://animationguild.org/

    They have always had a web presence, and yet, while I was a member, meeting attendance wasn’t what it could have been. people become ambivalent (yours truly included). People assume that the 8 hour day, 40 hour/5 day work week, lunch hours and breaks were granted by benevolent businesses. They weren’t. they were fought for by artist and workers who worked in conditions that I’m starting to see today more and more. (THIS is where history is repeating itself). TAG members had become complacent in being active and informed. Perhaps this is the by-product of the success of having a unionized Animation industry: ambivalent members. Life is good. This shows how its the membership that makes the union, not just iatse.. and its only as good as the members who maintain it. This is also where Tom Sito’s book serves as a reminder as to how things were and could be today without the union. Its a history lesson of labor and animation.

    When Dreamworks was formed, it was Steven Speilberg that said “it will be a union shop”. Someone as successful and self made as Speilberg see’s the legitimacy and wisdom of a union. Its a form of “Wealth”… a wealth of history, knowledge, resources and people.

    So laugh all you want about iatse.. laugh all you want at Jim Goodman… at his blog…. at unions.. You know who’s having the final laugh? the studio head driving the Bentley… because the way he divided and conquered the vfx vendors , the same is happening to the artist. VFX is the only part of the biz that lives by a “Lord of the Flies”-esque set of non rules, standards, organization or structure. It seems to pride itself in that. Individual workers form S-corps like they are little one man companies.. meanwhile they work for the vfx vendor 1099. when they should REALLY be working for the vendor’s Cleint…. the vfx vendor is a middle man sucking he profit that should be yours. Its all pride and arrogance… sitting there next to a staff employee using the same tools and desk and taking orders from the same sup.. but you are somehow different being an S-Corp..> The vendor laughs because he’s got someone working the same as a staffer, minus the benefits, payroll overhead, seniority benefits, vacation, holidays, sickpay etc… its a loss of WEALTH on the part of the employee… and remember.. those aren’t your clients.. its your boss’s clients.

    And when they show you the door.. and they will, its all gone. You have to renegotiate EVERYTHING that has come before. Will the next job be hourly? will they pay OT after 8 or 10 hours? Will you get the same rate? Can you get a bump on your rate thats been stagnant for 3 years despite the fact that you know do matchmove and rigging in addition to your “classification” of animator. Good luck.

    • vfxPeon says:

      ummm…are you kidding me?

      i am ready to join. i showed up at the meeting they held in la. i gave them all my contact info. i signed their card. i told my friends about it. i researched the benefits and read all the material i could get my hands on.

      they said that they had a major facility that was gonna flip in a few weeks. hasn’t happend.

      they said they were going to start their major organizing campaign in april. hasn’t happened.

      they said they were going to make a website that would bring their organizing effort into the 21st century. hasn’t happened.

      i haven’t heard shit from iatse despite the fact that they have all my contact info. i wrote to them and no one bothered to respond.

      if someone like me who is basically ready to join the union can’t even get an email response from them, how am i supposed to convince my peers who don’t give a shit about the union that they should?

      i would love to know!

      • Vfxartist says:

        Good vfxPeon. Glad to see the effort is being made. But no one said this would be easy. Artist have to see this as investing in their own self interest. I see artist put in as much effort into a vfx company as if they were business partners, only to be let go. This, however, is different. People are going to have the resolve to follow through in what may seem like months of inactivity. Theres no “closing window” or opportunities here. Lets not create an artificial deadline. This is going to have to be a continued effort of educatimg people, and presenting facts to overcome imbeded belief systems. Remember, this is something we are building for ourselves. Its going to takd time, patience and continued commitment

        Don’t back down now VFXpeon.

      • vfxPeon says:

        honestly, i do think deadlines are important. they are important because the jobs are slowly creeping away to other countries. standards are getting lower. more companies that don’t give a shit about labor laws are popping up. and more junior artists are entering the workforce and are ignorant of how things should be.

        so yeah, if this thing doesn’t happen soon. it probably never will.

  7. Vfxartist says:

    What I don’t understand is that Vfx has such good example of what it should look for in a union: The Animation Guild. People keep complaining that there’s no iatse information. Meanwhile the Animation Guild is a great starting point for a framework for a Vfx guild. The reason for making Vfx it’s own guild instead of joining TAG is to accommodate how it’s not localized in LA, like animation.

    But that can’t start to happen until artist sign rep cards. I really can’t see people leaning about the collective bargaining benefits of TAG, see it in action, and then think they can do better on their own in the long haul. I think the problem is twofold. One is that Vfx is becoming the new waitressing job in Hollywood. That filler job while people try to sell their screenplay. That job where the person who was in real-estate now works as a recruiter in Vfx. That job where people keep talking about getting out but never do. Meanwhile some are just in to pay off debts while the spouse is the one with the real career with the benefits. There’s no commitment by the artist to strive to improve things. Problem is that I’ve seen people wanting to leave Vfx for a decade and they are still in it, resigned to “that’s just how it is”.
    Second is a cultural thing: more and more people are isolated. Less and less communities and less cooperative efforts. More and more is done for the self. And now with new generations of kids weaned on facebook, CG channel, twitter, etc, what you see is a full on Army of One mentality. You hear artist talking of how they “brand” themselves, their id’s inflated by their hundreds of twitter followers and Facebook friends…. There’s an inflated sense of self importance that is not in proportion to their true abilities. It’s gotten so bad that companies are asking schools to teach “professionalism” as part of the curriculum because they are getting these strutting peacocks thinking that they should be made partner in their first day rather than learning the ropes.

    I know artist that prefer 1099 because of the perceptively large paycheck. I try to inform them about the true price: how they pay the payroll fees that the company should be paying. How as 1099, they should really be working for the vendor’s client, not the vendor. They are not a company, they are an employee by definition of law. Plus for many, you aren’t building a client base because it’s the vendor’s client. So if you really want to have your own company and business, do so. But keep in mind, working 1099 at a Vfx vendor makes you an employee but WITHOUT any of the benefits of being an employee.

    Lastly, there’s the reality of your “window”… It’s a period from your early twenties to your mid thirties. This is where you will see the largest growth (both in income and career), and it’s like a vector projecting where you will go from there, assuming you don’t change careers, win the lottery or join a monastery later in life. That window will also probably be where you can build your wealth the fastest since it’s before you got the mortgage, the spouse, the ex-spouse, the kids, the fancy toys, and the expensive zip code. The problem is when that growth plateaus, where are you? One recruiter at a Vfx shop told an older artist that the mean age at the company was 28. This is the data at their fingertips, and what they reveal. Imagine what goes on behind the scenes. I’ve seen ageism first hand. I know no matter how hard I work, I’ll never see a staff position or benefits again from this biz. I’ve seen companies staff up twenty something’s around me as I’m tasked to do not just my Vfx work, but managing the kids, doing client bids and tech approving all shots, if not completing them… Meanwhile I was hired as an artist, but slowly tasked to do more and more until I’m doing the job of a Vfx Sup. They say they don’t want me to leave, but they expect me to do that much work for no additional pay, or even a proper title, nor even a contract. It’s nuts. Meanwhile the kids think that their booming “careers” will continue so, not realizing that the game is rigged in their favor. “rising stars” is what the recruiters call them when they are just willing to live at work. I’m not saying these kids aren’t talented, but the economy of the business is being based more and more on this exploitation.

    Getting back to the “window” theme. The only people I see successful in their lives are the ones that used that window to build their wealth in something else… Usually another business, like a restaurant, or in real-estate. Effectively, they took the money they made, and now that money makes them money. Keep in mind the difference between wealth and being rich: people say they see fancy cars in Vfx parking lots… That’s rich. Heavily leveraged rich. Rich tends to depreciate. Wealth is different. That’s usually built slower and is self sustaining in some cases. A Vfx guild would be an example of wealth: a wealth of resources, knowledge, collective bargaining, etc. But wealth in Vfx? I see a lot of riches, but not much wealth.

    Truth is, if you frame your “window” just around Vfx, you will likely run into the plateau I mentioned earlier. The industry is becoming more youth centric: 40 is the new 60 in this business. So unless you framed your window outside if Vfx so that you have a sustainable wealth outside of it, you may have a problem. The staff job becomes a “gig”. Bye bye health benefits, vacation and anything else that one accumulates with seniority (better parking spot, people capital, career momentum), and hello perpetual job search… Even when you are working. Banks look at the fact that you have a $1200 cobra bill and no steady place of employment and you are suddenly toxic, no matter how good your credit is. Of course this all happens at your peak of being leveraged: mortgage car payment, spouse, kids finishing High School, etc and your spending was based on that consistent paycheck. And money problems almost always lead to spouse problems. Oh and I haven’t mentioned the long hours, 7 day work week, day rate, lousy chair, lousy food (read: deliciously greasy and fatty), sedentary work, intermittent AC….

    Point is: if you want to speculate that you will “make it”, be it a screenplay, a Vfx rock star, to direct while doing your “waitressing” job as a match mover, character rigger, animator or compositor…. Great! A Vfx union won’t stop you. In fact it can help enable you by providing a stable platform to springboard from. You don’t have to waste time and energy fighting for the basics like health insurance or financial planning. You can benefit from the wealth of being part of a larger organization that benefits from residuals from the massive box office that the movies we make that people want to see end up drawing in. None of that should curb any of your dreams. What does curb dreams is setting your growth clock to zero when you suddenly have to back burn any plans you have, even starting a family, when you suddenly have to fight on your own for health benefits, a decent wage, even a decent chair, all over again…. And again and again… While these movies clock in billions just in the summer.

  8. maple leaf EH! says:

    VFX artist:

    I feel as strongly as you do about this unionization drive. But when IATSE can’t/won’t participate in the online Live chat that was hosted by Variety about the importance of unionizing and are unable to promote themselves, how can we as artists promote IATSE to our fellow colleagues.

    I have signed a rep card BTW.

    I’m in my mid 20’s at the moment and I’m not in this industry to pack it up soon, if that was the case I would be long gone. I plan on working in vfx until I retire at 29… jk.

    Some facilities need to unionize more than others and it frustrates me when I see very experienced artists that are at the top of their game settle for a lower rate and stay extra hours without billing the company. I think they need to understand how that affects the mind set of the facility.

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